Chilling effect has been achieved, all according to plan.
To reiterate, the design of surveillance is population control,no more or less; terrorism is merely an excuse for technological implementation that was desired since time immemorial by the powers that be.
Now, onto the implications that the NY Times was too friendly to state:
1. People are self-censoring dissenting views in regular conversation outside of people they trust
2. People are self-censoring dissenting views in written communication
3. People are self-censoring their own minds as a result of #1 and #2
Therefore,
4. Dissenting communications and dissenting thoughts are reduced in frequency, leading to a snowball effect as ideas are more and more suppressed
In terms of the scope, while the poll was only of writers, it seems as though the majority of writers consider themselves to be victims here.
I think it's safe to say that the implications I listed are also applicable to other segments of the population-- most importantly, the segments of the population that are the usual hotbeds of dissent, because they are more likely to be paying attention to advances in government power which would create a chilling effect.
The chilling effect produced by the endless rounds of disclosure of government abuse of surveillance is probably not going to go away anytime soon. Unfortunately, self-censorship is one more nail in the moribund democracy here in the US. Keep in mind that even if a person does not self censor, the mainstream media (which should now be understood as including major internet news hubs such as reddit) will likely prevent off-narrative news from spreading.
So, what's the solution? I don't know. Still waiting on a hot new SV startup to "disrupt" the surveillance state.
The problem is that today's jello-spined journalists give too many shits about surveillance. Sure, every single journalist should take massive precautions to encrypt every single thing and source, no matter how banal; but once the proper precautions have been taken they should go on balls to the wall attack. Shame, de-obfuscate, highlight, an expose the hell out of government and business. There should be zero mercy! If journalists should fear anything, it is that some other warrior-journalist will slay a corrupt government agent or business crook and gain all the praise.
Dear journalists, it's time to drive the rats out of America. It is your responsibility as the fourth branch of government to open the curtains, let in the burning sunlight, and exterminate the vampire roaches. Show no mercy, and provide no harbor. Your job is only done when you die exhausted from seeking out the source of the constant stink of corruption. Make people understand complex matters of corruption, do your jobs, do what you wanted to be.
Wow, according to Wikipedia he died of suicide by two to the head. And here I thought stories of suicide via two self-inflicted head shots was a myth restricted to conspiracy theorists.
Even if it was a legit suicide, there's a reason the movie is called "Kill the Messenger". It's shameful how much other journalists focused on him rather than what he was reporting, and even worse since he was right.
The capital of the world's sixth largest economy uses a coroner and not a medical examiner? For reference, a medical examiner is a forensic pathologist, and generally one with a forensic fellowship. A coroner is anybody with a pulse, either elected or appointed.
That said, it looks like the Sacramento coroner does in fact employ at least one forensic pathologist, so that lends a little more credence to the finding. Also, in these high profile cases there are often quite a few witnesses to the autopsy, which makes it more difficult to squash evidence.
And, yes, there are plenty of stories of people surviving a gunshot wound to the head, even remaining conscious.
Not every head gunshot wound is fatal or incapacitating. The WP entry should have a few links to studies where they find a small amount of suicides require multiple shots to work.
The sad thing is that you don't have to have real surveillance to do this. All you need is the belief that the surveillance is going on.
It would be a great plot for a movie: Snowden et al, were given fake information to lead the world to believe it was being surveilled, eliminating a lot of bad behavior.
> It would be a great plot for a movie: Snowden et al, were given fake information to lead the world to believe it was being surveilled, eliminating a lot of bad behavior.
Potentially saving the government a lot of money in the process. Money, which in the movie of course went to private hands of evil politicians and businessmen instead of being saved. As the plot develops, the protagonist slowly uncovers the evidence of that widespread conspiracy and in the climax (after enough scenery porn and helicopter chases to justify the budget for 3D version) heroicly exposes corrupt actors for what they are to the entire world. Cue in happy ending and closing credits, as behind them the whole world tears itself apart in a yet another case of Hollywood not thinking through the morality and consequences of protagonist's actions.
I was aiming for an even funnier twist of Government Was Right After All, Asimov's "The Dead Past"-style. The world goes to hell because the illusion of surveillance was actually effective in preventing terrorism (also sneaking in a jab at the ending of "Surrogates").
A "fun" conspiracy theory I've been mulling over for a bit... What if Snowden was a false flag operation? After all, what good is panopticon if nobody is aware of it?
> what good is panopticon if nobody is aware of it?
You can blackmail all those in positions of power (politicians , judges, etc) into doing what you want? Who cares what the rest of the population (those low-life sheep) think.
(This is what most likely goes on in their minds.)
The best false flag is when the actor doesn't know he's in on it. See Snowden doing the things he's doing, let him do them with minimal restraint, and let the truth into the wild.
However, I don't actually believe it. This assumes competence above and beyond reasonable suspicion. It's much more believable that security was really just very poor. At some point somebody might have done a little less than possible to let him go, but that's about as much as I'm willing to believe.
Snowden steered the conversation towards the US political establishment's _massive_ hypocrisy. At the time, the US was wagging their finger hard at Chinese tech companies, as if to say US tech companies would never stoop to the level of backdooring consumer hardware or spying on their users and handing that data over wholesale to government spies.
In addition to embarassing the American political establishment, Snowden revealed JTRIG; he revealed acts of industrial and political espionage; and he revealed the undermining of public cryptographic standards by government henchmen. This to me is the big one, and it's why it's so unlikely for Snowden to be a limited hangout.
Prior to Snowden, if you weren't being paranoid, you were just sticking your head in the sand. You would be exposing yourself to the risks of parallel construction, backdoors in hardware, sabotage of public cryptographic standards, and the manipulation of online discourse if Snowden hadn't given people like me the power to credibly parry critics who are all too quick to discredit with terms like "troll" and "conspiracy theorist".
Snowden showed James Clapper to be a criminal, too. And the IRS claiming its own electronic paper trail of criminality could be somehow "lost" in this age of pervasive surveillance lends credibility to the idea of there being a clear divide between those who are above the law, and the rest of us. The Rulers and the Ruled.
In general, no. When you start assuming everyone is a bad guy you end up with everyone from journalists to drug dealers to captains of industry trying to make sure their own secrets are safe from the surveillance machine.
The surveillance people have a saying. To find a needle in a haystack first you need a haystack. But you don't want a bleeding haystack, you just want the needle -- and now you've put a haystack on top of it. Now all the good guys are developing and using anti-surveillance methods.
The bad guys were already assuming they were under surveillance. They aren't being deterred by surveillance of everybody else, they're just getting access to new tools developed by the good guys, and are aided by the fact that anti-surveillance methods are no longer suspicious.
Even better: prosecute people in high profile case, but they turn out to be completely fake personas -- actors hired to appear in court to look like they're coming down hard.
> you don't have to have real surveillance to do this. All you need is the belief that the surveillance is going on
A standard play these thugs often set up is a single intricate surveillance incident where the mark knows they're being watched very closely, then do another one much later on. This is intended to leave the victim in a state of constant paranoia during the majority of the times they're not being watched. It takes a lot of self-control to remain calm most times when this one's used against you.
Another technique when the surveillers have less control is the fatwa. I was in Hong Kong about 12 years ago on a ferry from some outer island when one (a young Australian-sounding male) of two people talking a few seats behind me suddenly said to the other (a young North American girl) "There's some people back home who want to know where in the world that guy up there is at all times. I better ring this in." He then talked loudly on the phone giving some details about me. The girl he was with had an embarrassed expression on her face like she couldn't believe what she was hearing. This all happened while I was moving from Melbourne (Australia, not Florida) to China to live. Unfortunately, that surveillance fatwa against me seems to still be in place over a decade later, and those who issued it are even willing to nudge along local people in China to use methods that would be illegal back in Australia/NZ.
Perhaps good news is that those in control of the surveillance always use intermediaries to hide themselves, and most intermediaries have a need to show off rather than hide themselves. By doing things like talking to yourself or "to God" a lot out loud within hearing of where bugs may be, changing what you say for different locations, you can often find out something about probable actors involved when stuff you've said comes back to you.
You appear to be a victim of Gang Stalking otherwise known as Organized Stalking. I am also a victim of similar tactics.
“Gang stalking” – also known as “organized stalking” – is a slang term for a set of tactics used in counterintelligence operations involving the covert surveillance and harassment of a targeted individual. The goal of such operations – in the parlance of counterintelligence personnel – is to “subvert” or “neutralize” an individual deemed by a government agency (or corporation) to be an enemy.
You won't find the reason in any public court document, nor will asking the populace involved reveal the real intent because the reason such puppeteers give their intermediaries, often different reasons to different intermediaries, is never the real purpose behind surveillance. Much targeted surveillance using human agents becomes interference of some sort by those same agents. Often when surveillance becomes interference, the puppeteers tell their intermediaries they're trying to "help" the mark, but in reality, they're only pretending because the real intent of anyone behind this type of activity is always to harm. I experienced this when someone up here tried to shunt me out of work teaching college students and into work teaching children, telling people I should do the work that pays the most. They pretended to be helping so they would appear to be "good guys" to their intermediaries, but their puppeteers were really conducting harmful manipulation for their own ends. They ultimate reason behind surveillance, whether one-to-one or broadcasted "fatwas", seems to be to protect free cash flows, or maintain power structures, and what not.
A day after posting the above reply came an event I was half anticipating: the Person of Interest episode 79 broadcast on 6 Jan 2015 in the U.S. featured a preachment saying "Anyone who treats life as a game of chess, treating people like pawns, deserves to lose". This could have been placed in response to a bait comment I left on Hacker News 2 months ago ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8548483 ) but they are usually placed deniably. I've learnt from experience what the lagtime is between letting on I watch some TV show and something apparently targeted at me appearing in it, though this is the first time I left one on purpose.
The preachment as presented was only pretending to be aimed at me, but was actually aimed at others. What I was being told was "My blog is bigger than your blog, our budget is bigger than your budget", a message given many times via CBS, ABC, Fox, etc over the past few years. The actual preachment line is for certain TV viewers, especially in places like Australia and China, saying it's OK to target me because I treat other people like pawns. This latest fatwa-style call to arms is of a similar method to many previous ones for surveillance like the one that came from Melbourne Australia 12 years ago which I mentioned 3 comments up in this thread.
The preachment relies on erroneous assumptions of course. I never liked fighting other people, prefering instead co-operation and group activities like bush hiking (tramping) and camping, but I've since learnt that a more appropriate line instead of Harold Finch's is one by Leon Tolstoy: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you". I've been attacked in various psychological ways over the past few decades, which I now recognize as being a formulaic and ongoing operation by some people to wear me down, originating in New Zealand but spreading to Australia and the U.S. These are the people the Groovy/Grails managers got into bed with when I first started to respectfully work my way into that community. And I've since learnt I have to respond to war with war, using many varied tactics such as timing bait comments with a 2 month lead.
Another erroneous assumption in that preachment is that I use other people like pawns. I don't know any other people very well, and if I make an effort to build relationships with others, sometime down the line they'll start to experience anonymous harrassment in an apparent attempt to get to me. Warning someone that this might happen isn't sufficient because a warning is only words, and they wouldn't really know what I was talking about until it starts happening to them. I know this because 20 years ago someone in NZ said the same to me about himself and I had no concept of what they were really saying. I wouldn't want to ever knowingly be the cause of this to be in someone's future. It's the sociopaths behind these fatwas, who hide themselves behind layers of intermediaries, who are the real users of other people. I'm fighting the war as a lone guerrilla.
Anyone involved as an intermediary in some action against me should realize that the reason they're being given is just a cover story to make their handlers look like "good guys". I know far more names of people involved than the very few I've mentioned on my blog but only wanted to name and shame the sociopath puppeteers, not their pawns, because the intermediaries "know not what they do". The only smart response by someone to a fatwa to fight me is to refuse to take part, but of course that might also suit the sociopaths now that I'm "losing" as a result of their previous attacks.
To reiterate, the design of surveillance is population control,no more or less; terrorism is merely an excuse for technological implementation that was desired since time immemorial by the powers that be.
Counter-terrorism is a real motivation, but unfortunately the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
1. People are self-censoring dissenting views in regular conversation outside of people they trust
2. People are self-censoring dissenting views in written communication
3. People are self-censoring their own minds as a result of #1 and #2
4. Dissenting communications and dissenting thoughts are reduced in frequency, leading to a snowball effect as ideas are more and more suppressed
It's not just the government that is producing these effects. The "mainstreamed" culture of the present day Internet is distinctly anti-intellectual and produces precisely these effects. "Slacktivists" of all political leanings engage in programs of intimidation to silence those they disagree with, which is entirely antithetical to having a pluralistic society. I just had a "discussion" with someone who was incapable of distinguishing the meaning of "lies" and "lying" in the context of deliberately falsifying or omitting facts versus someone having an ideology one disagrees with. Yet this person regards themselves as a "thinker" and "intellectual." This sort of person seems to comprise the majority of people in the Bay Area.
I used to be able to hang out with nerds and I could reasonably assume that no one around would be so scientifically illiterate as to believe that a person thrown out an airlock would freeze solid in two seconds flat. Everyone would know what "frequency response" was and be able to apply the concept. Now, a lot of "nerds" will just pattern match that as an "audio-woo" word and shut their brains off, yet you can ask them about the Fourier Transforms they studied as an undergrad. It's like we're the version of Brasil Richard Feynman visited. <http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education> Most importantly, I could hang out with "nerds" and assume that the vast majority of those around actually knew how to think and apply logic and actually discuss things with people they didn't agree with. Somehow, we've arrived at a state where most people tell themselves they're thinking, but they're actually just parrotting their friends after crudely pattern-matching the conversation. How can I tell? Because it's now very difficult to agree (yes, agree) ideologically with someone but point out they've arrived at their conclusions erroneously. Almost no one actually listens to and really examines facts and logic. They just determine if it vaguely sounds "truthy" in a way that aligns with their politics.
(Worse still, lots of self-identifying "nerds" will use the above process in discussions involving physics!)
Love this post but I do not understand your example about frequency response. Are you an audiophile whose friends refuse to believe that one amplifier can sound better than another? or are you a guy whose friends mistakenly believe one amplifier can sound better than another? Or something else?
> Love this post but I do not understand your example about frequency response. Are you an audiophile whose friends refuse to believe that one amplifier can sound better than another? or are you a guy whose friends mistakenly believe one amplifier can sound better than another? Or something else?
I'm a musician, avocationally. I have a pair of Etymotics earplugs that have much flatter frequency response than the foam ones. (Well relatively. Most frequency response graphs of things one puts in or over ones ears don't really look all that "flat." <http://www.etymotic.com/er20.html> No, I don't work for them or know them.) I wear these as a means to control volume in situations where I wouldn't otherwise be able to, but still need to hear things clearly, and they work. As a result, I've had occasion to answer questions about them in public places like conferences in the Bay Area, and I've noted a few condescending and smarmy responses, as well as a "I don't know what that is."
(EDIT: Seems like you're pattern-matching me a bit, based on "stuff you saw on the Internet." However very big changes in frequency response can make big, measurable and predictable differences, even in how well one can understand speech. I've had occasion to undo naive sound-person's adjustments to bring out bass and treble, but as most speech information is carried in the "midrange" frequencies, this makes announcers less comprehensible.)
Huh. Even iPods have selectable equalizer settings (presets only, alas, not fully adjustable, at least on my iPod Classic). I guess a lot of people aren't even curious enough to look.
We should note, however, that the writers surveyed were all affiliated with the group doing the surveying, PEN, which is a writers' group devoted to the defense of free expression. These respondents can probably be expected to over-report the chilling effect, somewhat.
Again, though: none of this is to say that we should not be very concerned about state surveillance. We should be.
>To reiterate, the design of surveillance is population control,no more or less;
The biggest myth perpetrated by the US government is that they are in control of the country. That illusion must be protected at all costs. The government nibbles around the edges and catches a few criminals(<20%) but by and large the country is relatively safe internally not because of the police but because most citizens are good people.
So are those countries that are lawless and violent that way because the citizens are just bad people?
People aren't particularly good. Scourges like say bribery or spousal abuse are rife in much of the world, and commonplace among the populace. In places where they have been nearly eliminated, government has played an enormous role. Not because they catch all the bad guys, but because imposing and enforcing law creates social norms that affect the behavior of ordinary people. Someone in Pakistan isn't more likely to beat his wife than someone in the U.S. because he doesn't understand it's bad or because he isn't worried about getting caught. It's because the relative certainty of enforcement in the U.S. undergirds and sustains a social norm that makes wife beaters into pariahs.[1]
Moreover, murderers and the like aren't the biggest threat to society. What matters are organized groups exercising violence. A small armed group can terrorize a large population, as is demonstrated time and again in places like Pakistan or Iraq. To suppress such groups the government not only has to catch them, but make the retaliation so swift and inevitable that only the irrational would try to bypass the ordinary social and legal structures with force. And the government is very effective at doing this.
[1] This is, incidentally, why there are special laws against e.g. hate crimes, even though assault is already illegal. The generic social norm against assault isn't strong enough to protect a targeted group, and a new law can create a more powerful social norm to compensate.
This phenomenon is also evident in the discrimination context. People didn't just become better and less racist in the last 50 years of their own accord. Laws like the Civil Rights Act catalyzed the change by imposing new social norms. When discriminating in the workplace became illegal, people who discriminated became "bad people" which forced changes in behavior that have little to do with what percentage of people were caught.
"So are those countries that are lawless and violent that way because the citizens are just bad people?"
Look at the history of urban conflict -- it's virtually impossible even for a high-tech military actor like the USA to effectively police a dense urban area without incurring unacceptable civilian casualties that would further radicalize the population.
You can nuke a city, sure. That's easy. But policing a dense city of millions of people even with heavy surveillance and military force is damn hard.
If most people weren't basically good, we would indeed live in a lawless hellhole.
You have it backwards. They have unproductive economies because they're lawless and violent. You can see it in the evolution of societies like Singapore or India.
I suspect the comorbidity rate is nearly 100%. I suppose when I say "an unproductive economy causes violence," what I mean is that it's a better idea to spend resources bootstrapping a sustainable productive economy than just trying to stop violence.
I assume you mean to use Singapore as an example of where strict laws and reduced violence have had a positive effect on development? As opposed to India?
I'm not talking about strict laws, just the rule of law. The supremacy of the state over any challengers. In both Singapore and India, strong, effective government has enabled economic development. Vis-a-vis India, it's government isn't as effective as those in the West, but it's an interesting reference point, because India has been much more successful than neighboring Pakistan and Bangladesh. 100 years ago the wealth difference between the countries was nothing to speak of, but India has been more successful in developing its civil institutions and has been rewarded for that success economically.
>So are those countries that are lawless and violent that way because the citizens are just bad people?
I imagine they look out for people of their own tribe, but that kind of tribalism does not exist in the US. The point I rebutted was about population control. A good example is the federal governments inability to stop the legalization of pot. They absolutely oppose it but can do fuck all.
The U.S. isn't any less diverse than Syria or Iraq and the potential conflicts between the groups are no less serious. And at times this has resulted in violence. Ever watch Gangs of New York? So why aren't American Catholics fighting Protestants like Shi'ites fight Sunni? It's not because we're just better people on this side of the pond.
That, and there is comparatively little resource scarcity. The government could easily steer the country into the economic ground, resulting in widespread suffering and eventual complete social breakdown.
Just because the government as a whole can't build bridges or a health care web portal or do whatever else would demonstrate the sort of control you are implying, doesn't mean that specific actors within the triumvirate of the executive branch, legislative branch and media don't very much control the acceptable window of social and political discourse. That sort of control is no illusion.
Also, I think that what the sibling comment says about resource scarcity is certainly a more reasonable justification for why there is relatively little internal strife in the US compared to other countries. What makes "citizens" or all American residents any better people than the residents of any other country?
It's folly to assume that "terrorism" is some really concrete class of crime that can be easily prevented using known methods, and I'd further argue that the efficacy of surveillance to this end is unknown, but I'd venture to say it's pretty insignificant. Knowing this, a better way of phrasing the same question is: What tradeoffs are we willing to make to reduce the risk of terrorism, and where is the right balance? I would argue that, since the risk of terrorism is so low, the tradeoffs we're currently making are grossly out of proportion. If we want to prevent deaths in aggregate, we should be pouring government money into fighting disease and starvation in poorer countries. Much better ROI there.
Fighting terrorism isn't just about preventing X number of deaths.
The 9-11 attacks were profoundly disruptive in economic and social costs. Just in direct costs like buildings being knocked over, air travel being stopped, being not being able to get to work, was 200 billion dollars.
That's a little less than the GDP of Finland wiped out in one attack.
That is not to mention the cost of fighting the war on terrorism. All in it probably cost 5 Trillion.
You could say, hey, we didn't need to fight the war on terrorism. But the attacks were world changing events for the US. They caused fear, anger, confusion, and a need for revenge.
Whether it is rational or not, nobody is going to work in a skyscraper if every 20 months one gets knocked over. Just look at Israel and Palestine for what happens to cultures who expect terrorism (on both sides). It is caustic to a free society.
It is hard to tell how low the risk of terrorism is in a vacuum. There are certainly enough suicide bomb volunteers and other jihadists. Crossing the US border is pretty easy.
Some amount of intelligence is needed to make sure nobody is plotting something big.
What's the economic cost of car crashes? Or obesity? How many lives are lost in terrorist attacks vs slipping on banana peels?
What little terrorism actually exists is caused by the US government's own actions. So not only do we pay taxes to create terrorists with our sociopolitical skylarkings, we pay taxes to "fight terrorists" that are created by it. On top of this we all get spied on in the process.
How about we overthrow governments all throughout south america and the middle east, setting up puppet dictators that allow US corporations to come in and plunder everything while torturing and disappearing natives who speak out? That's sure to clear up our terrorism problem. Or how about we blanket bomb buildings with drones...surely we'll only kill terrorists. And if there's "collateral damage" surely the family members of the deceased will understand that their family members died for a good cause. Surely they will now cheer on the USA and its noble battle against the evils of this world. Surely they will not become poisoned against the USA and what it stands for (what do we stand for, again?)
Apart the excellent points of cost-effectiveness and the USGOV being the biggest organized terrorist group in the world[0] made by other posters, I'd add one more thing.
We have to ask ourselves - what is the goal of terrorism? It's to force your target to do something you want (a political action) or totally waste resources. Civilian deaths are just collateral damage, means to an end. The 9/11 attacks scared the entire west to the point of insanity, made it waste money on wars and turn themselves into police states. If the terrorists' goal was to damage "our freedom", they most certainly succeeded - thanks to what can be only described as a severe immune overreaction on a societal level.
The right way to deal with such terrorist attacks is to mostly ignore them, and don't get yourself scared. As a terrorist, you have no reason to fly stuff into buildings if you know it won't buy you anything.
It's huge revisionism to say that the 9-11 attacks were an attempt to destroy America by wasting resources. It's a popular factoid but it's total bullshit.
The idea was to get the US to just leave the middle east. And that was a pretty epic failure on Al Qaeda's part. The US is up the middle east's ass a lot further now than then.
Also "they hate us for our freedom" is some dumb Bush era idea. Al Qaeda doesn't hate America for our freedom. Al Qaeda explicitly explained why they hated us. 1) Troops in the Arabian peninsula, 2) support of Israel, 3) blockade of Iraq.
>As a terrorist, you have no reason to fly stuff into buildings if you know it won't buy you anything.
All that it has bought them is death. Their goal was to take down the US and it tremendously backfired, but we kind of squandered that goodwill. If they want to make money they kidnap Europeans who they know will pay the ransom.
First I'd like to express disappointment that dharmach is being down voted just for asking a question. A question worth asking.
Second, this is an excellent answer.
If the government wants you to give up your civil liberties and uses the threat of a terrorist attack to get you to give them up, then they have become terrorists as well. However, I don't know if that is the explicit goal or not or just the outcome of a grossly over exaggerated response. I do know if someone wants to get their way they usually just say "terrorism" or "children."
Terrorist attacks are rare. Humans are terrible at evaluating risks.
> However, I don't know if that is the explicit goal or not or just the outcome of a grossly over exaggerated response.
I'm leaning towards the second. Governments, especially democratic, are complicated systems, and as such a collective failure resulting from many small actions guided in various forms of self-interest seems much more probable than a grand conspiracy. I believe that the US terror actions abroad are just that outcome of a grossly exaggerated response, a failure mode the Government can't find a way to get out of.
Don't create enemies (by invading foreign countries, putting lackeys in power to get their resources and messing with their politics) in the first place.
Downvotes? What exactly sounds controversial about the advice? Anybody read 20th century history?
Besides, it's not like "terrorism" is some constant in societies. With the exception of nutjobs, organized terrorism is a response to specific political circumstances and relations between countries. You don't see any terrorism between the Swiss and the French. But there has been between the Irish and the British, for the well known historical reasons. Or in Spain with the Basque countries. Or in the Middle East / Latin American.
It's a political issue, and can be solved at that level, not some natural force that we no other mean to stop except to always be prepared for it, like earthquakes.
For what it's worth man, if we could deal with the decades long threat of nuclear annihilation of the world and preserve our civil liberties, I'm dumbfounded that the threat posed by terrorists even registers.
I love it. Someone posts a comment in public forum saying that people can't write dissenting thoughts because of the chilling effect of government surveillance. Someone else asks a question in response that doesn't quite fit with the political climate on HN, and is subsequently downvoted to the point where the comment is barely readable. Irony is dead.
I lived in Cuba for a while, as an intern at an NGO. I was surprised to see how free spoken the people were.
Over time I learned how the system worked. In every neighborhood there was a CDR, committee for the defence of the revolution. Members of the CDR surveilled. Generally, people knew when you went out, who you had over, some things you said.
You couldn't know when someone would know. Some topics were taboo, others were more risky. But the biggest factor was whether you were likely to cause a fuss. People who weren't important were allowed to blow off steam. But they were watched. And the day they rose to become a threat, the system had been on them for some time.
So you thought long and hard before doing something that would actually threaten the system, outside the bounds of what was tolerated.
Ending with a system that looked free, and many even described as free. Because in a lot of important senses, it was. But in very specific, important senses, it was not.
Frankly, I feel this is the situation with the US. So many people say so many things, from threats to talks of secession to revolution. But it wouldn't be until those people have actual influence or potential to take action that people are taken out - MLK, for example.
You've hit the nail on the head. The US system is just more automated and advanced than the Cuban. The pricinples remain the same. Watch all the people all of the time and when someone gets interesting then have the knife ready in place to twist it as hard as possible to 'neutralise' the risk to the status quo and those in fiscal power.
Thanks for sharing this. In my short time wandering Cuba as a tourist, everyone parroted the official story e.g. the injustice imposed on the Cuban five. To be fair my Spanish was poor at the time.
Suspect the end of embargo will lead more tourists to be exposed to the regime's official story.
I doubt most people would notice actually. It took a while before I started learning the details. It's a pretty subtle system.
The initial impression is that there's actually less repression than outside reports indicate.
And as far as repressive regimes go, it's not heavy handed. They're very effective at stopping organized opposition, and any large scale business – but the average person does have a reasonable amount of liberty.
I never heard anyone talk about the Cuban five. They don't care. That's just propaganda.
I'm not sure why the left and the libertarian right are such advocates of Cuba. Its a hellish system there where basic human rights are trampled with impunity. Sadly, whenever this is brought up, I get the usual whataboutism's about the US.
You're conflating "advocates for Cuba" with those simply against the pointless embargo. There's a huge difference, but if the US wants to continue the embargo at least be consistent about it, hit China, Haiti, Yemen, India, and so on. Heck just hit all of the "Unfree" in the freedom index[0], that would at least be a little consistent.
Cuba definitely has a lot of problems. But so do many of the US's major trading partners, I mean want to talk about Saudi Arabia, Israel, and China..?
>I mean want to talk about Saudi Arabia, Israel, and China..?
Notice my comment about meaningless whataboutism's. The reality is that what's happening in Israel does not affect what's happening in the hellish political climate of Cuba.
As someone who could reasonably be classified on the libertarian right, I think you're conflating different views under a blanket heading of 'advocacy of Cuba'. I certainly do not think communist dictatorship is a good form of government. But I am opposed to the economic sanctions, which are pointlessly destructive and worse than useless; they hurt the innocent more than the guilty, and they create an atmosphere of isolation and paranoia that makes bad governments worse not better.
yes, a hellscape of nearly full employment, universal healthcare/world class medicine, and basic needs of citizens guaranteed despite half a century of economic and covert warfare by the world's largest economy. truly horrifying
I'd suggest that many people putting their thoughts and opinions in any sort of permanent, record-able, store-able, searchable medium are self censoring to some degree, or at least considering it. In the last few years, I'm saying less and less, let alone writing it down. Im conscious that, for example, anything I write on the internet could be used against me in the future, in ways I cant know about now. Anything I say on the phone is vulnerable too. Its bad enough worrying about the present, but who knows what attitudes will be in the future.
Yea I've definitely thought about it before tweeting, even before favoriting things (which, I don't believe at least, on twitter, anyone should be able to see) but I'm just not certain about anything anymore.
With the recent battles with the NYPD here in NYC, I've often found myself on both sides (although certainly more generally identifying with the more open minded (and occasionally less vehement) protestors (although I think it's a societal issue (poverty begets poverty, most people in poverty minorities, people in poverty more likely to commit crime, especially in our materialistic society, most people in bad crime ridden neighborhoods with low social mobility and extremely expensive education are minorities --> thus minorities are bad) as opposed to just random system wide racism that sprang up institutionally through out the country) but despite that, and despite my utmost respect for many members of the NYPD and all of the pleasant interactions I've had with them (generally asking for directions), I'm still a little concerned when I tweet with their hashtag or even their full acronym.
I know I'm probably not their biggest suspect, but still... That's a weird feeling.
I'm pretty sure you've missed a close-paren there ;).
I don't want to be picky, it's just that the multiple-nesting structure of your comment makes it insanely hard to parse correctly. Would you please mind reformatting it?
From my current attempt at parsing it, what I understood is basically "I respect NYPD and have mostly pleasant experience with them, and yet still I'm very conscious of what I tweet if the message has their hashtag/name in it". Is that correct?
Speaking as a writer and blogger, I can say that this has absolutely been the case for me over the past year. Whereas before I used to blog about anything that came to mind (that wouldn't negatively impact my employment), I now weigh each blog post, Facebook post, tweet ,and non-OTR encrypted GChat (for friends who are too lazy/clueless to install OTR) carefully, employing an amount of self-censorship that I never would have thought possible before. I am even now different over text messages. I've lost my writing voice.
I was afraid to write even this post [1], which sounds ludicrous, but it's amazing how much hearing the revelations impacted me.
The irony of this situation is that, even before the Snowden leaks, I had been (and am) working on a novel about 1936 in the Soviet Union, the year before the largest of the Great Purges, and had been struggling to get a handle on how people felt about information censorship and how people found out that their government was not what it seemed.
Just out of curiosity, what exactly are you afraid of? Not meaning to belittle your concerns; I just wonder what topics are now taboo, e.g. discussion about hijacking planes or how to build bombs perhaps, that might flag you in some keyword search and trigger a visit from the FBI?
That's the thing...I [we] don't know what keywords trigger deeper searches, or how exactly our browsing/typing history is tied together in which database. If I type 'Bin Laden' in a chat, does it flag me somewhere? Or is it filtered out as useless?
If I write, 'I had a blast at a party last night' (a really simplistic example, but you get the point) or 'Check out this story about this guy who wanted to kill Obama..he was crazy!',does that do anything, or are those keywords ignored?
What's considered a false positive, and what's a true positive? The algorithms do the filtering, but the humans write the algorithms. What's the error rate?
I think I am most afraid of what I don't know about how this works.
Yes. Or, again, I don't know. That's the terrifying part. But given that we know the surveillance machine is much deeper than we anticipated, I can't come up with a worst case scenario anymore, which is what scares me the most.
Worst case scenario: you die, or you die after lots of torture. Why not look at the most probable case, which is nothing happens? There's a quote from Richard Stallman that applies here: "They seem to have learned the habit of cowering before authority even when not actually threatened. How very nice for authority. I decided not to learn this particular lesson."
Personally, I fear writing certain things with a username that's easily associated to my real name by the public at large, not the government with their clever tools. That's because I know the real and not-so-improbable consequences of doing so[0]: losing my job and getting blacklisted from the entire industry I've spent most my life trying to improve in and contribute to. It can be economic death. The threat of the mob is much realer to me than the threat of the government.
Freedom of speech isn't fought at Michelangelo's David; it's fought at Larry Flynt's Hustler. Freedom of speech without the concomitant rights to privacy in one's person and papers, and the right to free association with others, privately or publicly, is severely hobbled. The War on Some Terrors has set back free society more than anything else since "The Red Scare".
Why does this matter? Because it doesn't just extend to writers. It extends to engineers, scientists, programmers, architects; basically anyone who makes things.
Having to worry about whether or not what you say, write, or think is illegal has a cost to creativity, since it will inevitably affect behavior like sharing ideas. imo this is one major reason that western nations produce more innovation than places like China. It's what gives the West an edge. If this trend continues over the long haul, western governments may finally achieve killing the goose that lays golden eggs; eventually we may just end up being on par with places like China minus the industrial output.
I think 'illegal' isn't the best word here. In the US and the other 'five eyes' nations, it seems to me, agencies have a much broader scope than that. Things you say aren't strictly illegal (after all there's the first amendment, and similar laws in the other countries), but they are classed as threatening in other ways.
Also, anything we say might not get us in trouble today, but since it's hard to predict what the future holds -- laws may become harsher for example --, it might indeed get us in trouble two or even five years from now, (possibly after it no longer represents our current opinions even) since it's all recorded.
About China I agree, and think they and other similar nations stayed competitive because they have where to 'borrow' innovation from (i.e. the freer nations). If we ever get to a place where the whole world is totalitarian/authoritarian this will stifle innovation everywhere.
I don't see the clear link. A writer expects that his writing will be viewed by countless others. For instance I have no fear of the NSA reading this message. Surveillance or not, this is a public forum. They don't need taps.
Are they afraid that by writing that they will become the subject of increased surveillance? That could/would happen as easily 30 years ago as today.
At least today we have tools to fight back. The mathematics of encryption are on the side of the individual. Open source software, Tor, PGP ... today anyone with a netbook can play in the big leagues of secrecy. Journalists should probably feel safer than they did back when the only thing protecting their documents was a metal key to a leather briefcase, when the only thing stopping them from reading their mail was the glue.
The fear isn't of being read, the fear is of the backlash of what was written. The fear is that free expression is no longer free but subject to strange, vague rules that change all the time. Such as supporting something today and then years from now it's out of vogue so that previous statements, collected and tagged all those years ago, will be held against you. Either socially, or in some cases criminally.
And it isn't just the government that's been doing this. Many of us now live in a world where your opinion can have heavy consequences outside the scope of the context of the opinion. I would say that if you have an opinion on anything that you share publicly, prepare to have your apology ready to go to appease the offended masses that will not hesitate to make an example of you.
Keep in mind that some people see this as a good thing, until it happens to them.
But these are writers speaking as writers, not members of the general public. Their criticisms of state-backed surveillance should therefore be different than the generalized chilling of expression felt by the public at large. Writers have always known their words are inspected. The public, those who previously did not expect their communications to be monitored, they have far more to fear from electronic surveillance.
The OP, and several commentators here, also conflate fear of surveillance with fear of the burgeoning police state. They are different concepts. A police state can/will attack a journalist without any surveillance beyond a police officer reading a newspaper.
Not that I'm disputing anything you're saying, but I am going by what the article stated that some of these writers claimed is their reasoning behind worrying over the surveillance. I just happen to agree with much of it.
What you say about the two different concepts is true, but they also go hand-in-hand in most cases. I see nothing wrong with any of the statements from the article or this thread.
> Are they afraid that by writing that they will become the subject of increased surveillance? That could/would happen as easily 30 years ago as today.
It was less efficient and a lot slower decades ago. Back then you just have people manually combing and reading books. Now you have computers with improved machine learning processing huge numbers of documents. Even without machine learning, just being able to flag keywords is really powerful compared to yesteryear.
Unfortunately, many here write under a pseudonym. Surveillance at the scale the NSA/FBI/CIA is practicing deanonymises everyone, pseudonym or not. You control the information you put into this public forum, but they operate at a level beyond that information.
I don't want to diminish this problem, but I am not a fan of the way some of these survey questions were framed. It lumps people have taken actions in with people who have considered taking that action. It is a real "Have you ever tried sugar or PCP?" type situation. There is a big difference between a third of writers thinking about whether they should change what they write about and a third of writers actually following through with it.
"Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Absolve you to yourself, and you shall have the suffrage of the world." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance
People have to (be able to) say what they think or there will not be much thinking going on at all.
Sorry, but I'm not seeing the big deal here. There's surveillance in the U.S. and U.K., true, and it has to stop or be severely curtailed, but these countries are a far cry from a place like China, where people actually are arrested for violating strict censorship laws.
The NSA's mass surveillance has been brought to light by a former contractor; the secret is blown, the cat's out of the bag, and Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall already.
Americans have a newfound, healthy distrust of the federal government. There are lawsuits pending. Tech companies are already creating work-arounds, for example Apple's announcement of encryption for their users' devices that even they can't break.
I suspect that in the near future, the major email providers will offer end-to-end encryption for all their users with no possibility of back doors. The NSA technicians will lose the ability to casually type in a name like "Bill Clinton" and read his email at their leisure (as happened with that analyst who got fired).
As for self-censorship, can anyone document how widespread that actually is? Today we are witnessing the most diverse array of opinions disseminated to billions of readers that has ever occurred in the history of the human race. These writers in this PEN survey sound timid and fearful to me. I wonder what they would say, had they had a chance to compare the current situation with that of eastern Europe and Russia during the Soviet period, or the military dictatorships of Latin America, where outspoken writers were rounded up and tortured.
I'm not trying to belittle the surveillance problem that we have; I'm adamantly against it and it does indeed threaten our long term freedom. I'm voting against anyone who supports NSA surveillance. Unfortunately, it's going to take some time for the import of this situation to sink in to the dim consciousness of the American voter. I wish that the writers surveyed by PEN would lead the charge to raise people's awareness of the situation by writing bold essays and opinion pieces to state their views, rather than "self-censoring" as they apparently are doing in order to avoid what they imagine to be retribution or harassment from nefarious government entities.
However the censorship laws in China only apply to messages that try to gather people for public group actions. Messages critical of the government and vocal of discontent are entirely allowed and not subject to censorship. Even group forming messages that support the government are censored. See this study done at Harvard for details: http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/censored.pdf
With regards to the freedom to protest, the US government has its own mechanisms to unfurl public group action.
Also remember the removal of Apple's Warranty Canary. It's also interesting to note that were Secure Enclave manufacturers compromised or to collaborate with law enforcement (giving access to UUIDs mapped to each device) the whole scheme is caput.
I am wondering if you can provide a quick primer on who you've not voted for and will not be voting for that supports surveillance.
Thanks for an interesting post. Ted Cruz of Texas is one of the few prominent Republicans who opposes NSA surveillance; Marco Rubio of Florida supports it. The Democrats of the Senate recently voted for Obama's reforms of the NSA surveillance, and the Republicans mostly opposed it and blocked passage.
I believe, however, that some of the more libertarian minded Republicans like Rand Paul voted against the bill not because they support the NSA, but because they felt the bill didn't go far enough to rein it in and would have created a false calm.
It's perplexing and frustrating to me, as a fiscal conservative who normally prefers the Republicans (albeit opposed to many of their social policies). I stopped subscribing to the conservative publications Commentary and WSJ because of their pro-NSA stance.
Thank you for replying with your list. I lean away from Cruz myself (not offering a strong enough dissent, a la Rand) but I did find it pleasant to see his SD-226 questioning of the Review Panel. I would note that I also am frustrated in my attempts to find a party and candidates I feel represent me.
I wanted to reply to
> I suspect that in the near future, the major email providers will offer end-to-end encryption for all their users with no possibility of back doors. The NSA technicians will lose the ability to casually type in a name like "Bill Clinton" and read his email at their leisure (as happened with that analyst who got fired).
First I was wondering if you had a reference for the analyst that got fired. I hadn't heard that particular instance of (attempted?) abuse.
Third I wanted to share that encrypted communications will not prevent disclosure of customer records pursuant of 18 U.S.C. § 2703(f) (A governmental entity may require the disclosure by a provider of electronic communication service of the contents of a wire or electronic communication) and a constellation of other laws that require providers of communication, even when encryption is provided by them, to disclose those communications upon request: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2703
You will see a strong history of this with encryption laws with telecommunications providers and the Clinton Administration first attempt at using key escrow rather than regulatory measures (and in fact we have seen that telephony data is easy for the government to request).
I'm aware of the Citizen Labs experiments and consider them interesting preliminary results. Given the implications made by more in depth study that supports my assertions, could you reply to the contents of the study I posted specifically or provide one that studies the issue and comes to a different evidence backed conclusion?
As far as I can tell the Citizen lab's analysis is much less complete methodologically than Roberts, King, and Pan, importantly is trying to answer a much simpler and narrower question, and furthermore that between the two studies - their findings do not contradict. As far as I can reason the King study puts the Citizen Labs study within the scope of the claims I posted, but perhaps you could enlighten as to why that isn't so? It might also be useful to interject here that the Chinese government does not perform application level censorship itself but uses regulatory agency (vis a vis the Google scenario) to have corporations, with freedom of implementation, censor in the manner the Harvard Study has established.
> but these countries are a far cry from a place like China, where people actually are arrested for violating strict censorship laws.
The argument is that we're headed in that direction, so let's turn the ship around before we get there.
> The NSA's mass surveillance has been brought to light by a former contractor; the secret is blown, the cat's out of the bag, and Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall already.
Yet, more people bitched and whined about whether it was legal to blow the whistle rather than the message itself.
Snowden pointed, and everyone looked at his finger.
> I suspect that in the near future, the major email providers will offer end-to-end encryption for all their users with no possibility of back doors
Impossible. Email providers cannot ensure this level of safety, only end-users themselves using tools like PGP, which is unfortunately still a mystery to many people. The sad truth is that end-to-end encryption requires know-how and a bit of effort (even if just a little). Most people don't care enough, or are just confused by it. Hell, I'm an experienced programmer and still have to look up "best practices" guides from time to time. Your average Joe Schmoe isn't going to do it, and nobody else can do it for them.
> Unfortunately, it's going to take some time for the import of this situation to sink in to the dim consciousness of the American voter.
Agreed, like I said, most people we're more distracted by the reveal itself than the actual information revealed. I was dumbfounded how easily the citizens of my country were led astray, and even more who swallowed the "terrorism" excuse. Pathetic.
So I guess my point is that this is a bigger deal that you're making it out to be. Yeah, it's worse in China, but we're going to BE China soon if we don't stop multinational corporations from raping us over a barrel and controlling every aspect of our government.
After all, what good is free speech if it stands in the way of progress?
To your point about email, wouldn't it be easy enough to install a browser add-on that handles the end-user PGP for you? Even people who don't understand all this encryption stuff could do it. "For safer surfing, install the SafeSurf extension and then no one can spy on what you write!"
I suspect that eventually, and to the chagrin of the spies, most of us will have this type of extension installed, and share public keys with our correspondents or whatever. Then the next big market will be databases of public keys, but luckily those can be altered easily enough. In fact, make the extension automatically prompt you for a new one every 4 weeks.
Writers, as always, are free to think and write anything that does not threaten State security. As good citizens, we know that they would not want to jeopardize the security of the State, and therefore, we assume that they will keep tabs on the things they write. Only if they write subversive or other undesirable content will they be observed. And only repeat offenders will be brought in for questioning and re-education.
To reiterate, the design of surveillance is population control,no more or less; terrorism is merely an excuse for technological implementation that was desired since time immemorial by the powers that be.
Now, onto the implications that the NY Times was too friendly to state:
1. People are self-censoring dissenting views in regular conversation outside of people they trust
2. People are self-censoring dissenting views in written communication
3. People are self-censoring their own minds as a result of #1 and #2
Therefore,
4. Dissenting communications and dissenting thoughts are reduced in frequency, leading to a snowball effect as ideas are more and more suppressed
In terms of the scope, while the poll was only of writers, it seems as though the majority of writers consider themselves to be victims here.
I think it's safe to say that the implications I listed are also applicable to other segments of the population-- most importantly, the segments of the population that are the usual hotbeds of dissent, because they are more likely to be paying attention to advances in government power which would create a chilling effect.
The chilling effect produced by the endless rounds of disclosure of government abuse of surveillance is probably not going to go away anytime soon. Unfortunately, self-censorship is one more nail in the moribund democracy here in the US. Keep in mind that even if a person does not self censor, the mainstream media (which should now be understood as including major internet news hubs such as reddit) will likely prevent off-narrative news from spreading.
So, what's the solution? I don't know. Still waiting on a hot new SV startup to "disrupt" the surveillance state.