Something I noticed at my current workplace (20 employees, 80% women and mostly between 20-30 yrs old) is that all the girls constantly take breaks or walks together to just to be with each other and get things off their chests. They frequently give each other hugs at random times during the day. New employees arrive and they immediately fall in to the fold. One arrived from abroad and after a few weeks said "you guys (she meant gals) are my new family here"
Meanwhile there's us 3 developer dudes who all get along fine but our relationship goes about as far as "all good?", "yep you?". And then of course talking about IT geek stuff. Kind of general problem with men I think. Very difficult to open up to other men.
I honestly don't think it's as big a problem as you would expect. Guys aren't quite so built to be huggy friendly and we tend to be more defined by real working relationships.
Or maybe it's just a me thing.
Like, at work for me I would be most rewarded by other people who are engaged in that common work cause and interact within that context. Not with stories about family life or opening up about whatever.
Hanging out with friends is kind of pointless without a common cause. To do play some game or sport or actually do something that's worth doing and is fairly collaborative.
To me a friend is like "hey I'm building a fence, wanna help?". And the ability to be building a fence yourself and asking the same. Or whatever project you can imagine.
The "you good" shit is mostly a consequence of lacking that sort of common cause, at least in my experience.
Or just watching other people do stuff is good too. "Hold my beer" silly stuff that you can watch and joke and one up each other about.
But if someone started that family huggy stuff (barring needing help or talking about their problems) I'd be distancing myself from that hard. In my experience those people are out to get you, smile on a snake.
I used to have this attitude and regret losing good friends over it. It’s too easy to be independent these days, and, if you’re naturally introverted like me, too easy to neglect friendships due to self-reliance. I’m gradually learning to reach out to friends for no other purpose than spending time together, and it’s broadened my horizons. I think modern life is by default too isolating to allow most relationships to build themselves like this. You don’t have to hug people, but reaching out for non-transactional contact is rewarding IME.
To be fair, I didn't say you have to have a good common cause. Just something to do in some capacity.
Like, you don't need help, it's fun to hang out and it's an excuse to get help.
My point is to say the relationships are different rather than transactional. Focused on a common cause and that sharing of it rather than relationships directly.
> Guys aren't quite so built to be huggy friendly and we tend to be more defined by real working relationships.
Do you think this is really true, or just how it is in some societies? There's been a lot of talk about suicide rates in men and lack of social connections. Maybe this is just wrong, and as others have said, pure social connection without having to "do" something is the point.
A lot of old guys out there dying alone because they can no longer "do" and don't have an idea of just how to "be."
> Hanging out with friends is kind of pointless without a common cause
Absolutely not. Relationships need to be nurtured. Hanging out with your friends without any specific plans is great and I can't imagine not doing it regularly.
I am all for doing things together and that is usually how we men bond. However, we do need each other emotionally as well, when stuff gets real.
I have been going through mid-life issues lately. Its been hard to talk to friends about it. I have talked to older men as well as peers. I have made it a point to overcome the fear of opening up personally (make no mistake, its a fear that kept me from opening up to others before). I am a strong believer in letting it out there in the hopes that others are able to help. To many of the men I know do not want to show weakness. They try and look tough/strong/having it together, but really they are lonely because they have no one to help them through their struggle. The hardest part is that they choose this by deciding its more important to look strong them to have encouragement from friends.
I have seen a discouraging trend. Those that are not able to open up about their own issues are the ones that are not able to help me when I am going through issues. They don't know how to relate and its almost that some of them are afraid to enter into a deeper need. They have nothing to say, even if they can relate their words are empty because there is not a deeper bond there. The friends that have helped me are the ones that have actually reminded who I am and what I have already come through.
I am not saying we have to be a touchy feeling but when my friend is in a dead end/low paying job (in his mid 40s), had a side project partner back out on him, has to move out of his apartment because of new renters, and has a wife that is in increasingly dissatisfied with apartment living and tells say "I'm doing ok" on the phone... He is dying inside and won't let others in.
I am not afraid to go there with my buds. I will also so say that the men I go deep with always walk away from the conversation thanking me and grateful for the friendship.
About five years ago I got to know a new woman colleague. (I’m a man.) Very soon it felt like she was confiding in me. No one just confides in me like that, so I thougt we were developing a friendship -- I would never think to do something like that to anyone that I didn't trust. It felt great that someone would go out of their way to seek my Platonic companionship.
But I eventually realized that I was just the most convenient guy/person (most of her immediate coworkers were men) for her to complain about work while stuck at work. We never did anyhing together otside of work contexts.
I find it weird that other men don't do that. I try to be good friends with men and women I feel I can trust, and we do often talk about personal stuff to let out steam, take breaks for talking, go for walks once in a while, etc.
Just yesterday at work I stayed until 9pm because a friend was waiting on some CI shit, I stayed to do today's work in advance. We were close before but we talked about a lot of personal stuff to each other, it's nice advancing the friendship to new levels.
But I also talk deep stuff with my male friends. It's not really with everyone but there's plenty of people who are ok with that.
The one thing I miss from when I was a smoker was the easy, no-expectation, daily excuse to hang out with other dudes at the office. I quit smoking 10 years ago but I still have strong relationships with some of my smoking coworkers from back then, but I haven't developed any work friends at all since then. I find that the main component in building relationships is just how much relaxed time you spend together.
> And then of course talking about IT geek stuff. Kind of general problem with men I think. Very difficult to open up to other men.
I think men generally are about doing things together as opposed to 'just' being together. "Talking" isn't really counted as an activity for men, but is for women.
Get a bunch of guys together for paintball, or hunting, or sports, and relationships will form.
I'm not sure that's a problem, so much as it's gender observations. I've seen the same things. There's a meeting I go to, where it can be various blends of men and women. All the people are close and comfortable with each other, but if it happens to be only men, there's silence. If it's a mix, particularly if certain women are present, there's this animated chatter that's easy to join in on.
I know for me the heart of what I am isn't about 'opening up', it's about things like that IT geek stuff (but translated into what I do).
It feels like an emotional Dunbar number: I do best when there's just a couple people with whom I keep track of how they're doing in a personal way, and it matters a great deal but I won't feel at all the same way about twenty people at once. It seems like women are more likely to keep track of how large numbers of people are doing, in a social way, which won't always mean trying to HELP people: they can get caught up in drama when there's conflict among the people, and it takes on great importance.
I'll have a much smaller number of people like that, and will bind more loosely to them, and I think it's the same mechanism but it just doesn't scale the way it does with women. I don't see it as a problem, more as an observation.
Men (generally speaking) want to fit into the social dynamic of their tribe. If you started to slowly open up and talk about more vulnerable topics it's very likely they would follow suit. I've seen it many times, almost always where I was the one that started it. I was once a super 'introverted dev' but really I was just not well socialized and unwilling and unable to express my emotions with confidence and clarity. Once I started to feel my feelings (I started with a feelings journal where I'd write down any emotions I felt that day) then I could start to describe them appropriately for the setting. Opening up to a trusted member of whatever tribe you are in (work, friends, hobby club) at the appropriate pace inspires a great deal of trust. If you talk about how you feel openly (and again, appropriately to where the group is) they come to trust that you will say how you feel when you feel it and that inspires trust and security, which makes you a very valuable member of that tribe.
Thanks for the advice :) Paradoxically I'd feel more comfortable telling my life story and recent mishaps to a total stranger than to someone who I spend 8 hrs in an office with. Something to do with if it comes across wrong or people get freaked out, you're still sitting next to them for 40hrs a week until you leave the company.
That makes sense as you have more to lose with the people you know than the total strangers. Doesn't stop you from testing the waters though. Additionally, it is useful to find out who you can open up to and who you can't.
The good news is, you absolutely can tell a total stranger about your recent mishaps, or worries or problems or whatever! Services like The Samaritans exist just for this and many people find them extremely beneficial.
Meanwhile there's us 3 developer dudes who all get along fine but our relationship goes about as far as "all good?", "yep you?". And then of course talking about IT geek stuff. Kind of general problem with men I think. Very difficult to open up to other men.