Hey I remember that crowdfunding campaign! If the shipping queue is at 2019, why is my refund for an order from 2017 not processed?
First you guys said it was because I had to wait until my batch was going to ship. I waited. Now no who knows and no one will talk to me beyond saying "maybe soon?" and throwing their arms up. I'm a FOSS advocate and loved the idea of the Librem and even the idea of paying more for an ethical device, but this all leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and I'm not alone.
Any info would be appreciated. The email volleyball doesn't ever yield any new information month to month to month...
I don't know much about how refunds are handled, sorry. As far as I'm aware, the crowdfunder preorders were never supposed to be refundable (as that kinda defeats the idea of crowdfunded development); the refund policy in the shop was meant to apply for regular sales of things that were already available to buy there, which were just laptops and accessories at that time. I know that some refunds are being issued anyway, with the caveat that you have to wait for your phone to be ready to ship (otherwise the company would have to effectively cover for your withdrawal, as the components and production are already financed with that money). That's all I know.
2. after the crowdfunder ended in 2017, Purism made the Librem 5 available to purchase on their website. The ability to buy it as a product goes back to at least mid-2019 (and probably well before)
3. At some point in the last few months, Purism put a lead time on the Librem 5 of 52 weeks
For the period covering #2 and #3 above, Purism was (and is!) selling a device to customers over their web site. It's still up here:
The complaints I've read on the subreddit are from people who bought the Librem 5 as product offered on Purism's website, well after the crowdfunder was over.
(However, for the edge case of the OP you're responding to I do hope Purism will issue that refund-- as seba_dos1 said above the shipping queue is now into 2019, well past when that customer ordered. So unless the customer received their phone, there should be no reason not to issue that refund if waiting for the shipping date is indeed the only caveat.)
Additionally, there are apparently outstanding complaints about customers unable to get refunds for other Purism products, like their Librem 14 laptop:
> 2. after the crowdfunder ended in 2017, Purism made the Librem 5 available to purchase on their website.
Available to pre-order a product that was still in development, with all the risks it brings.
> 3. At some point in the last few months, Purism put a lead time on the Librem 5 of 52 weeks
Such long lead times have been put there much earlier than "in the last few months". Today the expected lead time is actually shorter than that, but given the Purism's history of too optimistic time estimates I doubt that it's going to be changed again to anything else than "10 work days" at the day the production and shipping catch up with all existing pre-orders.
I'd be careful with random complaints on Reddit made by deleted users, there have been some organized FUD campaigns there in the past (and it's worth noting that "Purism" subreddit is not controlled by Purism in any way and has never been used for any kind of official communication).
The funny thing is no one seems to know how refunds are handled, even within the organization. Talking to customer service is like talking to a guy that bought a Purism shirt and kind of knows the guys that handle the "queue" somewhere out there in the nether. Everyone I speak to at the company has no idea when I'll get it, but they're certain I will... eventually. Apparently I'm on the fast track too and have been for years, which is swell. The irony of all this is I selected the latest Evergreen batch when I funded because I didn't mind waiting. When Purism flirted with the idea of a new model after Evergreen I even inquired about moving my funds there so I'd get peak Librem - I really didn't mind waiting.
When deadlines got missed the third or fourth time I got worried. Then Purism started releasing a few phones to influencers and internal people only and claimed "shipping" I got more worried. I think the only "real" shipping batch was Evergreen ultimately anyway, but when some a few normal customers began explaining they got phones and they were overheating I got more worried. More time passed and the prices started rising to insane levels, transparency had fallen away completely and I still hadn't received my phone I just decided to cut bait. I asked for a refund and was told I would have to wait so wait I did.
> the crowdfunder preorders were never supposed to be refundable
Purism's crowdfunding wasn't traditional crowdfunding. The company exists with other, supposedly profitable, lines. The crowdfunders were supposed to get their devices before Purism started promising Librem USA to new customers. If you have a backlog, you clear the backlog before accepting, promising and shipping new devices to new customers. You don't just sit on the money and hand out IOUs.
Here[0] is the policy in 2020 regarding the crowdfunding campaign refunds.
> If you want to cancel an order for products that are in the process of crowdfunding or pre-order, we will issue a full refund once the crowdfunding/pre-order of the product is completed and all pre-orders are shipped.
This is now missing from Purism's policies. That's after I was told I would have to wait for my line in the queue. You're telling me the backlog up to 2019 is clear so I assume all "pre-orders" are shipped and I'm still handed promises. Since the queue is something mythical and no one, even Purism themselves, can tell me where I am in it, I'm left holding the bag. This is not how you run an "ethical company".
tldr; It's almost 2023 and I do not have either the phone I ordered in 2017 or the refund I filed for years later after a litany of missed deadlines, promises and communications failures.
> If you want to cancel an order for products that are in the process of crowdfunding or pre-order, we will issue a full refund once the crowdfunding/pre-order of the product is completed and all pre-orders are shipped.
Librem 5 pre-orders quite obviously aren't all shipped yet, otherwise you would be able to buy one without waiting in queue and all people who pre-ordered in 2019 or later would already have received their phone.
So you're telling me that if Purism continues to receive new pre-orders that outstrip their manufacturing capacity, they will indefinitely hold the money they've collected from me thus far since new customers' pre-orders take precedence over my refund? My refund, initiated because of their inability to meet demand in the first place, is now perilously delayed because of their inability to meet demand while they service new customers?
If so, this contradicts what I've been told in emails by Purism staff, the fact that people after me in the queue have received refunds and the fact that this policy in question no longer even exists on their website. It's all super transparent, fair and customer friendly.
The policy that you quoted states that quite literally, I don't understand your question. Even if you only consider pre-orders up to when the shipping has merely started, there are still some left to fulfill. The policy has been changed since and now mentions "when your pre-order is reached in the shipping queue", which is more favorable to customers and AFAIK that's how all requests are being handled now. You have stated yourself that "people after [you] in the queue have received refunds", which wouldn't be possible when sticking to the old policy. There must be something going on with your particular request and it isn't going to be resolved by a software developer writing comments on Hacker News.
I missed "back" when I grepped the new policies for "crowdfund", Purism changed the verbiage, my apologies. This was their earlier policy I believe, before the one I put up from 2020. There was some waffling as far as I can remember.
In any case, I guess I'll send another email because I think you're right, I should already have gotten a refund. Maybe Purism will agree with us time around. Saying my experience is anomalous doesn't really square with community sentiment. My situation isn't some crazy one-off and I think today Purism is more well known for their shady customer service practices than their open hardware and software. Hang around any of the forums and you'll see more disillusioned Purism fans than happy customers. I certainly didn't pre-order a Linux phone so I could be stuck in customer service limbo five years later divorced from both cash and computer.
Hell, I'd even take a phone if I could get one before they push back deliveries another year or two but I think that may push me into a different queue.
First you guys said it was because I had to wait until my batch was going to ship. I waited. Now no who knows and no one will talk to me beyond saying "maybe soon?" and throwing their arms up. I'm a FOSS advocate and loved the idea of the Librem and even the idea of paying more for an ethical device, but this all leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and I'm not alone.
Any info would be appreciated. The email volleyball doesn't ever yield any new information month to month to month...