> have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society
I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either.
Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in general? The Harvard affirmative action lawsuit revealed the extent to which affirmative action is a grossly discriminative policy that unreasonably raises admission standards for certain demographics to enforce a quota (and quotas are illegal according to the Supreme Court).
I somewhat agree with your first point about ad-clicking, but I think there is some nuance that you are missing, primarily the fact that all of engineering isn't web design. However, I am fascinated to find that you think that engineering know how isn't a critical aspect of modern societies? Please explain.
I agree that it isn't good that motivated and qualified people that really want to go to a top tier college are rejected. However, that is the basic fact of life when there are 10x more applicants that open spots. I think if we really wanted to tackle this issue as a society the way to start would be to increase the availability and affordability of high quality post-primary education. Let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct that Asian Americans would be accepted at a much much higher rate if race was eliminated from the acceptance criteria, and then Harvard started evaluating application as such. Harvard would become an Asian American mono-culture to the detriment of not just white people but Hispanic, Black and other under-represented minorities. Is that a good outcome???
I'm speaking loosely because I realize "Asian American" is a quite a broad cultural generalization, but I do personally admire the work-ethic and reverence for science and intellectual pursuit that has gotten this community to where it is today, to quote Drake "You came from the bottom now your whole team here". But as a White male American, I think when you are at the top of the food chain you have a responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity, otherwise that makes you an asshole.
Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not. Society does not need more engineers going to MIT and then taking a job at Google. Society does need more genius researchers pushing the boundaries of science, but I find it very unlikely that those people are not already admitted to top schools even in the absence of affirmative action. You can claim people have potential but potential doesn't cut it when one candidate took some community college classes and the other one won a national math competition.
> let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct
We don't need to assume, we can look at the makeup of UC and UW schools which are legally barred from using affirmative action and are similarly ranked. They average ~50% Asian.
> mono-culture
Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more monocultural the population becomes. Not only is that racist, but coming from what I assume is a white liberal it seems very hypocritical.
> responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity
I'm happy to support income based affirmative action. As we all know, parental income plays a far larger role in SAT scores and lifetime earnings than any systemic discrimination. But racial discrimination under the guise of affirmative action is a terrible idea that doesn't actually result in better outcomes. When you admit objectively less qualified people because of a quota those less qualified people end up doing more poorly down the line in the real world.
For example, even though CMU enforces a 50/50 male/female quota on its CS admits, the makeup of high paying jobs with people from CMU still ends up around the industry 80/20 male/female split, because the 20% that would have originally been qualified to get in without the quota end up doing just as well as their male counterparts that didn't have affirmative action benefits and the other 30% struggle to keep up because they weren't qualified in the first place.
> Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not
Totally agree, I would even go further and say that I think the "top tier" engineering schools are not better (actually I would argue worse because brilliant researchers aren't always brilliant teachers), they just are able to be a lot more selective with the people that they admit and that is probably the biggest factor on why they are perceived as elite. Which makes me roll my eyes at the whole "boo-hoo I didn't get into an ivy" culture that is driving all this resentment in the first place.
> Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more mono-cultural the population becomes
Yes and no. I am fully aware that just because I am white I am not of the same culture as another white person. And even more so are the differences between Asian cultures (I have lived and traveled in many parts of Asia). But if you take a general cross-section of people who look similar and live in the same geographical area, and compare them to a different group of people who look similar in the same area, you will find stark economic correlation between the two groups. This is why it is important to be conscious of the way that race is viewed and handled within a society. The argument that "I don't see color" is a very common sentiment amongst actual racists because
1. It makes them feel like they aren't a bad person
2. Conveniently allows them a free pass to not have to take a hard look at their ingrained racial biases
> Income based affirmative action
I agree, this to me seems like a much better metric for providing for affirmative action quotas, however:
1. It would result in very similar outcomes due to the economic correlation between racial groups
2. It could never happen because the American right would scream their heads off about socialism or whatever non-sense their propagandists spoon feed them.
3. Income != Wealth, and wealth is the real killer, so it also is not a silver bullet
I literally just said that you cannot label the cultural contributions of a group of people with the same skin color as a single unit and you go ahead and dismiss all that because you've "lived and traveled in many parts of Asia".
> stark economic correlation
This is completely unrelated to peoples' culture, which you claimed would become a monoculture if schools were majority Asian. If you want to be "conscious of the way that race is viewed and handled within a society" why don't you take a look at the Chinese Exclusion Act and Japanese WW2 concentration camps? If you take the stance that reparations should be made for systemic injustices, then you should be _preferencing_ Asians.
> would result in very similar outcomes due to the economic correlation between racial groups
I suggest you take a look at UC and UW admissions data and rethink your position. All the available evidence of unbiased admissions used in practice show substantial Asian overrepresentation even adjusted for income.
You need to take a serious look at the peoples' preferences you're ignoring when you decide to preach about the "importance" of race in society. California, where Democrats literally have a supermajority, voted down Prop 16 by a 20 point margin.
And maybe while you're at it, take a look at how racist your statements are. Implying that schools will evolve a monoculture if Asians become the majority is blatantly racist. Everything you've said thus far matches up to a tee the picture of a white liberal who thinks he knows everything and wants to dictate how people should view society. This [1] article literally exactly represents what you believe. People like you ARE the problem.
Really adds some credence to your “I’m not a racist, you’re a racist!” Argument /s
That’s actually a fantastic article, it outlines pretty well the hypocrisy of the left. You may find that there are some of us on the left that are trying to call out this bullshit too.
> You may find that some of us on the left are trying to call out this bullshit too
You should take a look at this video by John Oliver [1]. I find it hilarious how 9 years and 2 presidents later it is still relevant. You refuse to admit that _you're the one spewing the bullshit_. Any thought that you could be wrong is just inconceivable to you.
I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either.
Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in general? The Harvard affirmative action lawsuit revealed the extent to which affirmative action is a grossly discriminative policy that unreasonably raises admission standards for certain demographics to enforce a quota (and quotas are illegal according to the Supreme Court).