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In Portugal the law makes it so you can cancel any service using the same means that you used to subscribe it, so if they support subscribing online, unsubscribing also has to be doable the same way; same goes for via phone, personal or whatnot. It makes sense, prevents service providers from making it too difficult to terminate a contract.


Portugal is logical on some stuff.

Another example is prostitution is legal but you can only advertise yourself. I wonder what other countries have prostitution set up like this.

Or the speed traps that just trigger a red light.

Decriminalization of all drugs obviously too.


> Or the speed traps that just trigger a red light.

This is the best. You trigger a red light because you're speeding, and everybody around you just glares at you. Including the old woman walking on the side of the street.

It's like public shaming.

Thanks bud, because of you, now we all have to sit at this red light and wait. Good job.

That works so much better than the hidden speed camera ticket I get in the mail 6 months later, when I'm not even in Portugal anymore.

One is about slowing you down, the other is about revenue.


This would not work in Oakland. Cold red? zooooooommmmmm


The power of an angry glare from an old Portuguese woman (dressed in black) doesn't work in the US.


I am from Brazil, and here speed limits are literally dangeorus.

1. In my city people mostly ignore speed limits, because often they are unreasonable.

2. At same time people are so used to the above, that they ignore speed limits in very unsafe places.

3. I don't ignore the limits myself since I am a new-ish driver, but I almost crashed multiple times, either because I was with my eyes too gluted at the speedometer, or because everyone else was ignoring the speed limit and almost crashed into my rear.

4. I got fined for crossing speed limit anyway, when I was trying to understand the fine, I found out they been placing radars on steep hills on fast roads, so you have basically two choices there: climb the hill using higher gears, and cross speed limit, or slow down until you can use lower gears, and risk people crashing into you.

5. In a specific very steep hill they put the speed limit so low that the only way to climb that hill is actually go fast as you can until right before the radar, brake hard, immediately put first gear, and shove your foot in the accelerator pedal again and resume the climb tires screaming, if you attempt to climb the whole hill slower your car is likely to stall, thanks to Brazillian popularity of really low power cars, our cars are literally illegal in some european cities because of how underpowered they are and thus dangerous in hilly places.


Your 2012 account name is oddly apropos.


> speed traps that just trigger a red light

Much better than what I've seen in my (US) city: speed limit 30 mph, but lights timed for 40-45 mph to get a continuous green light down the one-way street. Either you speed, opening you to tickets, or you stop needlessly on lights that are set for a faster speed than you are traveling.


My personal favorite was a poorly-timed stop light, with a red-light camera.

If you entered the intersection as the light turned yellow, and drove the speed limit, you would still be partially in the intersection when the light turned red. And promptly get a ticket in the mail.

Nobody realized what was happening (at least not those on the receiving end of the tickets) until my high school math teacher got one.

She went out there and measured the intersection, timed the lights, then showed up to contest the ticket with poster boards containing diagrams of the velocity/distance equations.


Then gets sued for practicing engineering without a license.

In a display of civic engagement, Mats emailed the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying in the hopes that they could help him raise public awareness and asked for their “support and help to investigate and present the laws of physics related to transportation engineering.”

He got the opposite.

After curtly informing Mats that they do not regulate traffic lights, the Board warned him that without an engineering license from the state of Oregon, Mats would be breaking the law if he even referred to himself using the word “engineer.” Then, the Board launched an investigation into Mats, which lingered for nearly two years and culminated in a $500 fine. According to the Board, Mats engaged in the unlicensed “practice of engineering” when he spoke publicly about his “critique and calculations” for the yellow-light formula. Moreover, only Oregon-licensed professional engineers are allowed to use the word “engineer” to describe themselves.

Although Mats is not a licensed professional engineer (and never claimed to), he has a broad background in math and science. In his native Sweden, Mats earned a degree in electrical engineering, and worked for the Swedish Air Force and Luxor Electronics. Mats even presented his research on traffic-light timing at an Institute of Transportation Engineers conference, and he corresponded with one of the physicists who developed the original 1959 formula.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2017/04/28/...


Wow,that's insane. Thankfully in my teacher's case, the city basically said "oops our bad" and did actually extend the yellow (albeit several months later).

They did not refund any of the past fines though.


This sounds like a power tripping bureaucrat more than anything. I would take it up on appeal. Heck, might even be able to find a lawyer to help bring up a countersuit on contingency.


Interesting. Before they made red light cameras illegal in my city they required two photos to prove that you are in violation:

- one that shows your car before crossing the stop line when the light is red

- second showing your car after crossing the stop line within same light cycle (i.e. seconds from previous photo)

No need to do the math if you entered the intersection before the light turned red


Not sure where you are, but if that’s in fact the case, your city would be violating the law in at least California, and likely several other states.


Not GP, but I've seen it in the Boston area.


Not that the .gov won't happily take in money as a result of the dark pattern they've created but the primary cause of the patterns creation is likely the same old poor coordination, inertia and ineptitude that tends to plague government in wealthy areas with lots of stakeholders.

The road is signed probably for 30 because that's what is was historically or that's what they got after evaluating what the confusing web of rules and regulations says it should be.

The lights are set up for 40-50 because the person responsible for tuning the light a) looked at existing traffic data and set the light to that or b) assessed the properties of the road using totally different measures and determined that's the speed traffic would go.

And the city doesn't change the sign to reflect the reality of the traffic because a) they'd have to re-navigate the web of rules to do that and b) shirking potential revenue is a fast track to a dead end job for bureaucrats in that state c) doing nothing is easy.


that is good people finally realize it. these conspiracies are abundant! intentionally creating street traffic in this "clever conspiracy way" and no-option to cancel online, both are real, and detected few years ago. you see, it is green to discourage people from driving, in this way. yet, technically, they merely destabilize optimum good, not actually being evil.


Most assuredly not a wealthy area. But the local government is pretty awful.


Which law?


https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

Unless the road is determined to be a local road, posted speed limits are only enforcable if set by an engineering survey, or if it's at least X, which I think is 60 or 65. But I'm not sure it's illegal to post an unenforcable speed limit, or to ticket against it, it's just that those contesting the ticket will win.


We have the absolute worst of this world. If you leave a red light and travel near the speed limit (+/- 15mph) you _will_ catch the next red light. You can absolutely floor it and catch up with the next "pack" of cars and make it into the green light but you will be at the pack for the next light which will be red.

I hate it. I hate it so much. Travelling down an avenue for 3 or 4 miles is just painful. The worst is when there is zero traffic (say 10:30 at night) and you sit at red lights watching nobody pass.


I'd call that a “dark pattern in the physical world”.


People will do all sorts of ideological gymnastics to justify screwing the public out of money when they money lands in government coffers ad the end of the day.


Not untrue, but off topic.

People here are talking about unjust systems built to needlessly punish law abiding citizens monetarily and time wise. No gymnastics or ideologies necessary.

What comes to mind is the obscenity of civil forfeiture used without accompanying crimes upheld against the people who rightfully own said assets..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...


Are lights timed to 40-45 mph in both directions?


Somewhat inconsistently. This was most obvious on a pair of one-way streets, but one of them has been returned to two-way traffic. AFAICT, the waves in opposite direction started at the same time and the two streams passed each other around the halfway point. Other one-way streets in the area aren't on precisely the same schedule. The stretch was only about six or seven blocks long. And the wave didn't start at the boundary street of the area on one end, but one block into the area.


> Another example is prostitution is legal but you can only advertise yourself.

that's an excellent rule - because pimping should be illegal.


Pimping has little to do with advertising, it’s a form of slavery. Nothing would stop a pimp from forcing his workers to be responsible for advertising themselves.


>it’s a form of slavery.

Or a protection racket.

Or just fee for protection.

Depends on the specific situation in question. There's a wide variety of schemes that fall under the definition of pimping.


Those are variations of slavery.

"You work or I will make you suffer" is slavery.


One of the primary functions of a pimp is to provide muscle/thread of violence to dissuade customers from abusing the workers.

Whether and do what degree the arrangement between the worker(s) and the pimp is exploitative is more or less tangential to that.


Big difference between "I will make you suffer" and "I won't intervene when someone I have no affiliation with nor obligation to interfere with makes you suffer."

Mall cops certainly haven't enslaved mall owners.


“A fee for protection” is not that. That’s the equivalent of hiring a bouncer.


> "You work or I will make you suffer" is slavery.

All work is slavery.


Amen

I got up late today, so I barely have time to make pancakes and coffee before I have to leave for my day’s slavery.. if I’m late, I’ll have to do the slavery in my underpants at home until the morning meetings are over. Then I’ll drive to my slavery and be stuck there for 5-6 hours, with only lunch and snack breaks. Unless I need to take off early to run errands anyway


Actual slaves that don't get paid and get whipped if they don't meet quotas would have a major problem with your statement.

Most of the people here not only have the option of quitting, but a fair number could probably choose not to work for several months, or even the rest of their life. They certainly are not slaves.


That's not a pimp, it's an Erotic Services Agent ~s


Wouldn't regulations be easier to enforce on agents and organizations instead of individuals?


That's essentially the UK's law too -- but many arent aware.


The drug policy is well known, but the speed traps is new and amusing. It reminds me of the horn activated red lights in India. Genius idea.


Don’t combine the ideas or everybody will be speeding and honking constantly.


> Or the speed traps that just trigger a red light.

This sounds interesting. Since when have they been doing this, and do you have a link to photos, video or a more detailed description?


I don't know when Portugal started this, but in Germany there is at least the concept of a "grüne Well" (literally a green wave). Simply put: if you drive at the speed limit you won't get any red lights. Sadly the german administration barely makes use of this as it doesn't make them any money...


Many cities in the US do this along major roads. They'll time the lights to maximize traffic flow which ussally means if your driving the speed limit you'll at least get through 3-4 lights before you have to stop.


It's a red-light with a speed warning and a detector - if you go over the allowed speed, it turns red, otherwise stays green forever.

But we also have hidden radars which are not announced.


The trick is to drive normal speed and at the very last second speed like a madman, so that it still has to cycle to amber then red just as you leave the intersection!


Sounds super dangerous though.


The red light is some distance ahead, not right in front of the speed detector so that you have to immediately hammer down the break pedal and be rear-ended by the vehicle behind.

Of course some will still get as close to the light as they can and hammer the breaks last moment, but they'll do that at other lights too, and other unsafe things, so the danger is not caused by the light in that instance.


Is it a normal light at an intersection, or an extra one somewhere in the middle of a block? It's not hard for me to imagine people scoffing at the mid-block light and deciding to run through it.


Neither I'd say. They're usually on long stretches of old highways with no traffic lights between roundabouts where lots of commercial and residential buildings (and thus people) are right on the curb.


In Poland it's similar (you can only work for yourself). It's not even taxed (don't know why). I guess NL and CZ has most liberal laws in this case.


>Or the speed traps that just trigger a red light.

Sounds like a great way to train the entire population is to run reds between 10pm and 5am.


The population who would run a red light <<< population who would speed.


>Another example is prostitution is legal but you can only advertise yourself.

And then serious criminals are out of the advertising business, but can still offer consultation, business and personal protection, and, of course, forced sex labour through human trafficking.


Criminals would be out of a buissness because it became illegal? Are you sure about that?


And all that stuff is still illegal as it is in the US. I don't see your point?


GP’s comment makes a whole lot more sense if you assume a big fat /s at the end.


Not just Portugal, this is a European thing but apparently Germany hasn't implemented it yet and will do so starting next year.

That's the weird thing with some European "laws", they give countries 1 or 2 years to implement it and some countries abuse that to go and implement it on the very last day.


> That's the weird thing with some European "laws", they give countries 1 or 2 years to implement it and some countries abuse that to go and implement it on the very last day.

If you give them to the last day and they do it on the last day, they have done what you asked, it's not abuse. Want it done sooner? Require it done sooner.


I can confirm this is supposed to be the same in Spain. Implementation varies across industries, of course.


EU regulations take effect directly and are roughly equivalent to national law (see GDPR).

In contrast, EU directives stipulate the desired outcome and let countries draft their own national law to achieve the directive's desired outcome.


It's an EU thing, we have this in the Netherlands as well.

We see a lot of services trying to sell you subscriptions at the door or on the street, though.


In that case, it seems that they should have people going door-to-door offering cancellation as well.


> you can cancel any service using the same means that you used to subscribe it

This should be the way for everything. I'm about to move and I need to cancel my power and my cable and I just want it to be as easy as logging into the system, selecting my last day of service, and that's it


What in case that some company doesn't collect your email e.g. they try to sell you only over the phone?


This is extremely reasonable and civilized. Would you say that the rest of the legislation in Portugal is consistent, and the direction of the Country is towards good sense and reliability?

I have noticed of other EU countries that a response against abuse may exist, but severely delayed and only partial (e.g. about sale of misrepresented services and other contractual scams, especially when carried out over the phone).


No. Portugal is a (atm) an radically aging country, it is rife with corruption and politics are poorly led. Brain drain is massive. Employment is extremely difficult for both the jobseeker and the employer due to poor competitiveness, low productivity and terrible regulation. Healthcare systems have been dropping off a cliff.

IMO going the direction of a dying country. And I am Portuguese.

Virtually anyone I know with a good skill set that’s profitable abroad has moved.


Yes, everyone I know, in my age range, has moved to France, Switzerland, Canada, etc.

We all want to retire in Portugal, but it seems there are few employment opportunities unless you know the right people.

I'm sure "retirement" is the only growth industry in Portugal these days.


Also in order to retire somewhere - in order to stay anywhere outside a period of "apnea" -, you will want to find there that «good sense and reliability» mentioned ("reliability" as in "you can place trust in the policymakers and in the population in general", or what lets you avoid passing your time in the uneasiness of a "what insanity will they commit next". Some European countries have demonstrated quite an amount of perverse """creativity""", in the recent times. "Reliability" also means, conversely, that you can trust that policies will be issued to guarantee fair justice to defend the population against abuse - the thread is relevant).

Posters seem to say that Portugal has highs and lows. There should be a general balance anyway. I have been concerned for a long time about which territories have remained more solid in said terms of "good sense".


> Would you say that the rest of the legislation in Portugal is consistent, and the direction of the Country is towards good sense and reliability?

not GP, ... it is a role-model when it comes to the points listed above. I think it's hard to answer your question because how would one define "good sense and reliability". At the risk of being called out for whataboutism, here is something that would be sobering for most people (like myself) applauding the current "good parts":

https://www.biometricupdate.com/202111/portuguese-lawmakers-...


>"...At the risk of being called out for whataboutism..."

One who calls the other "whataboutist" is usually a hypocrite.


This is the law in California too!




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