> "Rather, you're just provoking someone else for no reason."
Actually it doesn't have anything to do with them, if they are offended its because they chose to watch, I did not force them to.
And what are these people you want to protect that they can't take an offensive world. I can, if they can't thats their problem, I won't limit what I say - these campaigns of intimidation also involve mere criticism of people that bare some similarities to Mohammed (see Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, which is actually not about Mohammed).
> "There is a lot of censorship going on in the world, and a lot of real things that you cannot say without being harshly criticized and thrown out of your job or something. That's what you should be concerned about."
We're talking about private citizens who chose to make a movie here, this isn't a corporate environment, the southpark creators are not bound by any contract that they willingly signed that states they must curb their offensiveness to particular groups.
[edit: actually they signed something with comedy central surely, but thats an internal affair for them, this has been released to the public now]
> "This particular example, is just an attack on an alternative religion"
Alternative to what? That doesn't even make sense, you were just mentioning, as if it had any weight, the fact they are 1 billion+
> "and what really hides behind this "freedom of speech" diversion is cultural intolerance and anti-muslim sentiment."
You don't know that, you're speculating, but you know what, I'll concede that a lot of it can be that.
Theres also a lot of anti-catholic sentiment, a LOT of anti-atheist sentiment, etc.
I believe freedom of speech covers hate speech as well.
"Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters" - Rosa Luxemburg.
> "The people who will argue that it should be allowed to mock another persons God will say nothing when Australia censors."
Actually I will stand up against stupid australian censorship and criticize it. One doesn't preclude the other.
> "If you want to fight for freedom of speech, then fight for real freedom of speech, not for this type of cultural attacks that try to use freedom of speech as their reason."
Actually I think the place that needs freedom of speech the most in the world right now is the muslim world, and we should lead by example, and yes, the example of mocking, and iconoclasm. And I know muslims out there that agree with that position.
What about "hate speech"? This is forbidden by the laws of the U.S.
The U.S is not an "everything goes" place where you can say what you want. The only difference is that some things are culturally inacceptible to say, and so are protected by the law, and some other things are not.
There is a lot of religous fervour behind these anti Islamic-culture movements, and a lot of it has little to do with free speech. A lot of it is mostly just religion.
That's what's so terrible about this - it comes across as a bigoted religous argument, and not as a defense for free speech. Look at the way people vote down anything mildly pro the other side and vote up comments that are just anti-islam. That's not about free speech, it's about intolerance for another religion.
I'm not asking for a law against showing the prophet on TV. I'm asking that this aspect of muslim culture be respected, just as words with slave origins are not used on TV.
All I want is that we all just respect each other and not mock each other.
> "What about "hate speech"? This is forbidden by the laws of the U.S."
I'm not an american citizen, my opinion is that hate laws shouldn't exist. And most certainly not any law protecting against blasphemy of any sort - glad we agree there.
> "There is a lot of religous fervour behind these anti Islamic-culture movements, and a lot of it has little to do with free speech. A lot of it is mostly just religion."
Oh I couldn't agree more, theres a lot of religious bigotry in this world.
I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion, why should matt and trey self-censorship? Are you afraid they might be interpreted as being religious bigots? What if they secretly are? It just doesn't matter.
> "Islamic-culture movements"
Again, not all muslims think portraying the prophet is a sin, as far as I know (which isn't that far, I'm no religious scholar) all Shia sects don't see it as so.
> "Look at the way people vote down anything mildly pro the other side and vote up comments that are just anti-islam."
I'm upvoting anything I see as a defense of freedom of speech, and maybe I'm upvoting comments that have been upvoted by bigots, I can't help if they are on the right side (in my opinion) for the wrong reasons, I won't stop making my argument just because people with horrible intent agree with it for the wrong reasons.
> "I'm asking that this aspect of muslim culture be respected, just as words with slave origins are not used on TV."
Actually they quite frequently are.
Maybe the frequent is there cause I mostly watch HBO.
> "All I want is that we all just respect each other and not mock each other."
I share that sentiment, I truly do.
But I'm not willing to compromise and capitulate my freedom of speech to respect other people's (in my opinion) nonsensical and fetishistic beliefs.
I won't do it for christians, jains, buddhists, jews, muslims. Thats equality - you earlier spoke of double standards, I strive not to have them :)
And if you really think this isn't an erosion of freedom you just aren't following this subject, there are people who are living under death threats for writing novels, and I'm not talking about the countries that have it inscribed under sharia law, I'm talking about western nations, look around the examples are plentiful - and this makes me want to do is show the prophet more, not less, not as a provocation but as a statement of freedom and civilization.
Actually it doesn't have anything to do with them, if they are offended its because they chose to watch, I did not force them to.
And what are these people you want to protect that they can't take an offensive world. I can, if they can't thats their problem, I won't limit what I say - these campaigns of intimidation also involve mere criticism of people that bare some similarities to Mohammed (see Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, which is actually not about Mohammed).
> "There is a lot of censorship going on in the world, and a lot of real things that you cannot say without being harshly criticized and thrown out of your job or something. That's what you should be concerned about."
We're talking about private citizens who chose to make a movie here, this isn't a corporate environment, the southpark creators are not bound by any contract that they willingly signed that states they must curb their offensiveness to particular groups.
[edit: actually they signed something with comedy central surely, but thats an internal affair for them, this has been released to the public now]
> "This particular example, is just an attack on an alternative religion"
Alternative to what? That doesn't even make sense, you were just mentioning, as if it had any weight, the fact they are 1 billion+
> "and what really hides behind this "freedom of speech" diversion is cultural intolerance and anti-muslim sentiment."
You don't know that, you're speculating, but you know what, I'll concede that a lot of it can be that. Theres also a lot of anti-catholic sentiment, a LOT of anti-atheist sentiment, etc. I believe freedom of speech covers hate speech as well.
"Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters" - Rosa Luxemburg.
> "The people who will argue that it should be allowed to mock another persons God will say nothing when Australia censors."
Actually I will stand up against stupid australian censorship and criticize it. One doesn't preclude the other.
> "If you want to fight for freedom of speech, then fight for real freedom of speech, not for this type of cultural attacks that try to use freedom of speech as their reason."
Actually I think the place that needs freedom of speech the most in the world right now is the muslim world, and we should lead by example, and yes, the example of mocking, and iconoclasm. And I know muslims out there that agree with that position.